dragongasN7

08-25-2013, 02:27 AM

Well what is it? (mastery)

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dragongasN7

08-25-2013, 02:27 AM

Well what is it? (mastery)

Phri

08-25-2013, 02:37 AM

Well what is it? (mastery)

Crit chance. (And maybe crit damage)

Crit chance. (And maybe crit damage)

meatvisage

08-25-2013, 04:05 AM

Percent crit chance and percentage spell damage multiplier.

Phri

08-25-2013, 06:19 AM

percentage spell damage multiplier.

When does that multiplier get applied? Before your Power? After the target's defenses have been added?

When does that multiplier get applied? Before your Power? After the target's defenses have been added?

meatvisage

08-25-2013, 08:10 AM

When does that multiplier get applied? Before your Power? After the target's defenses have been added?

It's the actual damage of the spell. So if your spell does 200 damage (150 base + 50 from power) and you have a 5% multiplier you'd deal 210 damage instead. Logically it would get applied before defenses, but it is really completely irrelevant since both are multiplicative. Say the base spell does 200, you have 5% multiplier, and they have 20% magical damage reduction from magic resist; if the multiplier gets applied first then you get 200→210→168, however if reduction gets applied first you get 200→160→168. Same thing really.

Power and mastery are multiplicative. That means as you build one the stat you are building becomes less efficient and the alternative stat becomes more efficient. I believe the mastery multiplier for spell damage is 0.005 (or 1%/2 mastery). At max level Zeri's Q has 280 base damage and a 0.65 power ratio (taken from the wiki, could be outdated). Given this information we can determine the efficiency ratio of a point of mastery to a point of power at any given point using the equation z = (280 + (.65p))(.005) / (.65)(.005m + 1).

If Zeri has 100 points of power and 20 points of mastery then we get z = (280 + (.65(100)))(.005) / (.65)(.005(20) + 1) which results in z = 1.73 / .7. This means a point of mastery is almost two and a half times efficient than a point of power at this stage in the game in terms of your Q damage. When Zeri has 15 power and 50 mastery we get z = (280 + (.65(15)))(.005) / (.65)(.005(50) + 1) which results in z = 1.45 / 0.81. At this point mastery isn't even twice as efficient as power. I don't know how much more efficient mastery has to be than power to make actual mastery items better than their raw power counterparts, but mastery is generally going to at least be worth more than power point for point since many spells have decent base damages and it is rare to see spells with ratios of 1 or higher.

If you don't want to do the math here are some general rules.

Low base damages, high power scaling: Prefer power.

High base damages, low power scaling: Prefer mastery.

Already have lots of power: Get some mastery.

And remember that penetration is another stat that is multiplicative with these two stats, making things even more confusing. Luckily the efficiency of penetration is more determined by your opponents than how many other offensive stats you have. Penetration scales on your power and mastery, but also negatively scales on your opponent's armor and magic resist. If resists in this game works like it does in League and a couple ARPGs I've played then your opponent going from 100→90 armor is a lot less brutal than your opponent going from 30→20 armor. Percent penetration will probably increase your damage more than any other stat once people actually buy defensive stats, since in a way it ignores this negative scaling. This is why it is a good idea to build Rage on carries.

It's the actual damage of the spell. So if your spell does 200 damage (150 base + 50 from power) and you have a 5% multiplier you'd deal 210 damage instead. Logically it would get applied before defenses, but it is really completely irrelevant since both are multiplicative. Say the base spell does 200, you have 5% multiplier, and they have 20% magical damage reduction from magic resist; if the multiplier gets applied first then you get 200→210→168, however if reduction gets applied first you get 200→160→168. Same thing really.

Power and mastery are multiplicative. That means as you build one the stat you are building becomes less efficient and the alternative stat becomes more efficient. I believe the mastery multiplier for spell damage is 0.005 (or 1%/2 mastery). At max level Zeri's Q has 280 base damage and a 0.65 power ratio (taken from the wiki, could be outdated). Given this information we can determine the efficiency ratio of a point of mastery to a point of power at any given point using the equation z = (280 + (.65p))(.005) / (.65)(.005m + 1).

If Zeri has 100 points of power and 20 points of mastery then we get z = (280 + (.65(100)))(.005) / (.65)(.005(20) + 1) which results in z = 1.73 / .7. This means a point of mastery is almost two and a half times efficient than a point of power at this stage in the game in terms of your Q damage. When Zeri has 15 power and 50 mastery we get z = (280 + (.65(15)))(.005) / (.65)(.005(50) + 1) which results in z = 1.45 / 0.81. At this point mastery isn't even twice as efficient as power. I don't know how much more efficient mastery has to be than power to make actual mastery items better than their raw power counterparts, but mastery is generally going to at least be worth more than power point for point since many spells have decent base damages and it is rare to see spells with ratios of 1 or higher.

If you don't want to do the math here are some general rules.

Low base damages, high power scaling: Prefer power.

High base damages, low power scaling: Prefer mastery.

Already have lots of power: Get some mastery.

And remember that penetration is another stat that is multiplicative with these two stats, making things even more confusing. Luckily the efficiency of penetration is more determined by your opponents than how many other offensive stats you have. Penetration scales on your power and mastery, but also negatively scales on your opponent's armor and magic resist. If resists in this game works like it does in League and a couple ARPGs I've played then your opponent going from 100→90 armor is a lot less brutal than your opponent going from 30→20 armor. Percent penetration will probably increase your damage more than any other stat once people actually buy defensive stats, since in a way it ignores this negative scaling. This is why it is a good idea to build Rage on carries.

Phri

08-25-2013, 08:22 AM

And remember that penetration is another stat that is multiplicative with these two stats, making things even more confusing. Luckily the efficiency of penetration is more determined by your opponents than how many other offensive stats you have. Penetration scales on your power and mastery, but also negatively scales on your opponent's armor and magic resist. If resists in this game works like it does in League and a couple ARPGs I've played then your opponent going from 100→90 armor is a lot less brutal than your opponent going from 30→20 armor. Percent penetration will probably increase your damage more than any other stat once people actually buy defensive stats, since in a way it ignores this negative scaling. This is why it is a good idea to build Rage on carries.

Completely off-topic, but would you say that taking the penetration perk for early damage is better than taking the 15 power? Since that early damage can then help you build upwards until the penetration perk itself gains you 15+ power from the gold which the perk gave you the possibility to get early on. The reason I'm wondering about this is that I feel like early-game counts alot in Dawngate. Lategame, not so much, since everyone eventually gets full build.

Completely off-topic, but would you say that taking the penetration perk for early damage is better than taking the 15 power? Since that early damage can then help you build upwards until the penetration perk itself gains you 15+ power from the gold which the perk gave you the possibility to get early on. The reason I'm wondering about this is that I feel like early-game counts alot in Dawngate. Lategame, not so much, since everyone eventually gets full build.

meatvisage

08-25-2013, 02:17 PM

Completely off-topic, but would you say that taking the penetration perk for early damage is better than taking the 15 power? Since that early damage can then help you build upwards until the penetration perk itself gains you 15+ power from the gold which the perk gave you the possibility to get early on. The reason I'm wondering about this is that I feel like early-game counts alot in Dawngate. Lategame, not so much, since everyone eventually gets full build.

I don't know exactly how much physical mitigation and magical mitigation you get from the respective resists, so I can't really give you numbers. It would work like the power↔mastery interaction though, the worse your power scaling is and the better your base damages are the better penetration is going to be. One thing that makes the penetration equation confusing though is the fact that the actual damage points of it provide is probably exponential with itself (penetration stacks better than other stats) and its scaling compared to power and mastery is dependent on your opponent's base defensive stats and the defensive stats they build. Also keep in mind that if you have abilities that scale on power but don't deal damage the penetration won't help those (and neither would mastery I'm assuming), not sure these kind of abilities even exist in Dawngate yet though.

I don't know exactly how much physical mitigation and magical mitigation you get from the respective resists, so I can't really give you numbers. It would work like the power↔mastery interaction though, the worse your power scaling is and the better your base damages are the better penetration is going to be. One thing that makes the penetration equation confusing though is the fact that the actual damage points of it provide is probably exponential with itself (penetration stacks better than other stats) and its scaling compared to power and mastery is dependent on your opponent's base defensive stats and the defensive stats they build. Also keep in mind that if you have abilities that scale on power but don't deal damage the penetration won't help those (and neither would mastery I'm assuming), not sure these kind of abilities even exist in Dawngate yet though.

Phri

08-25-2013, 04:00 PM

I don't know exactly how much physical mitigation and magical mitigation you get from the respective resists, so I can't really give you numbers. .

The perk gives exactly 12 "Defense penetration" (which I think of as penetration for both Magic Resistance and Armour. Also, as I only play Fenmore, I get my Q up in base damage pretty early. Would this help in getting some numbers? :D

The perk gives exactly 12 "Defense penetration" (which I think of as penetration for both Magic Resistance and Armour. Also, as I only play Fenmore, I get my Q up in base damage pretty early. Would this help in getting some numbers? :D

meatvisage

08-25-2013, 04:30 PM

Fenmore's Q has one to one scaling on power. That means that it's true scaling would depend exactly on your opponent's magic resist. Most characters start with 33 magic resist I believe, I don't know what percentage that mitigates, but lets just say it's 20%. That would mean you'd get .8(15) damage on your Q from the power mastery, which would be 12 damage, and that is from the very first point you put into that ability. Now lets say that you took defense penetration. Lets say that this reduced your opponent's magic resist to 21 which might be say 15% mitigation (still completely made up), this means that you get 5% more damage from everything when you take this loadout. That 5% damage would give you 3/6/8/11/13 additional damage per level on your Q, and would have .05 scaling with each point of power you bought in terms of your Q, this is assuming your opponent didn't build any resists yet. I'd think of the power loadout as early game, giving you that explosive increase of damage simply by putting a point in each of your damaging spells. I'd think of the flat penetration loadout as a midgame loadout, it gets better as you buy more power, mastery, and even penetration.